Continued from The Debate III, the debate II and the debate. Which I guess you could call the debate series.
I'm sorry for these big blocks of text, I promise next time I start a huge debate I'll do the whole thing in cryptic seemingly wise hai ku's, but you know it took me almost half an hour to discern what's my text and what's his text.
I have not replied to this post yet because I haven't had time, and because there is alot to answer in this post and this guy sounds very confused and angry. Maybe this month I'll reply.
Nasser , I was not going to send this to ya cause its really not necessary, we live live in complete different cultures, I am an atheist, you a muslim, we are different folks, in my head that’s 100% ok, I see it as a good thing that people are not all the exact same, I don’t want to live in a mono culture, not any more than I want to eat monsanto´s monocrops. But I just got reminded of how much I hate religion and just how close this war is to me tonight when I read the local news. I am so fucking sick of religion and government, I am so completely tired of their wars and all the other products of their sad inventions. I just want to live, grow, create, love, I have no need for some other mans dogmas, superstitions, or power games. Anyway… here is my response to your response.
"The poem says roughly “oh you who attempts to knock down the mountain by kicking it, feel sorry for your foot, not the mountain”.
But I want to live in a world where we have the ability to choose other paths in life, I don’t want to live in the shadow of such a mountain. Im not gonna kick it, that’s not how you move mountains, it takes logic and common sense to move mountains my friend. But we are not talking about mountains, we are talking about people and the way that they interpret huge books that other people have written that they are convinced they must live by. I don’t want to be forced into living under the veil of whatever dominant religion of the region or culture or government that happens to take root in my path. I have respect and love and compassion, I protest war, government and police brutality, I believe that humans and animals alike should not be raised in cages to be slaughtered not for food, and not for resources, not to feed the fat bloated ones who stand on our shoulders with their hands covered in blood. I already know from living most my life in the American police states that life amongst a culture whos operating system is an ancient dogmatic religion whos scriptures can be read any way you want to read them, is not the type of life I want to live. Not the style of life that I would choose to raise my children in, if indeed I felt it appropriate to bear children in this world of war and struggle whos future is looking rather dim. Which makes me even more frustrated when I see people all around me breeding like flys, when it is their violent consumerism driven mess that is at the heart of my very decision to not have children, but that is a different topic.So you see, there was no violence or clash of any kind, and in any case, since then I have changed my views about this issue, and the only reason I keep this deviation is for artistic value. a couple years before the cia sponsored osama cult took down the trade centers, we were in seattle protesting the WTO ,(well I wasn’t, I was in prison at the time) the whole city got shut down, there were an estimated 30,000 of us on the streets saying no to capitalism, no to the police state, no to the oil wars, no to sweatshops and sanctions and the IMF, no to the rape and pillaging of the third world, no to the building of prisons and bombs and malls. AND to my knowledge, not one person died. That is not to say that there was NOT violence, the police are always violent, they , like the military, serve as tentacles of the state. They serve to protect the infrastructure of power, by any means necessary, and when they succeed in securing it they move on self replicating like a virus, that’s how you go from a struggle on the streets of America to an all our war thousands of miles away a handful of years later. Ofcourse it is much much more complicated than that.On sept 11th I was living not too far from the place where they refined the materials for the Hiroshima bomb, and off to the other direction was an army base where they had massive storage bunkers crammed with leaking chemical weapons…. i didn’t like living amongst weapons of mass distruction, but life in America isn’t what as nice as some dumb folks think. It was a little town in the desert by the name of Kennewick Washington.When the towers got hit I hate to say this, but my first response was not terror, the first thing I thought was …….. wow that’s the home of the WTO, they really pissed the wrong folks off. I thought for sure that this was the start of a revolution of sorts, I thought for sure that it would wake up America and provoke them to think about the significance of their actions abroad and at home too. I was convinced that people would start looking into what might provoke people to take such drastic measures. I couldn’t help but to think about how many cia fuckers and bankers and other crooked power fiends were probably in those buildings, I felt horrible for the folks on the planes, I felt horrible for them, but still yet it was all so remote, just another mass casualty on tv ( yeah I had not yet boycotted the tv, the tv boycott was in the brewing for me and I didn’t know it) Then came the American media, I remember there was a local radio station handing out flags, and then almost imdiatly I knew that amerce was not going to question the WTO, they were going to go to war, this was not about human rights, or love, or compassion, this wasn’t about justice and peace. This was a propaganda campaign. Back before the WWII Hitler burned one of government buildings. It got the people of germany behind him even more. This is what was happening. Would it be aphganistan? Pakistan? No cuz they have nukes…. Would it be iran? No cuz they would kick our ass and we wouldn’t get nothing in return. Would it be Syria? I didn’t even know enough about the middle east to get that far…. It happened over night , they started recruiting people from the schools even more than before, and prowling through the ghettos and malls. Everybody started wearing redwhite and blue, and flying flags off their big bloated vehicals. I was a criminal at the time, I had been addicted to drugs before, and I felt that it was a good time to start back up. I spent that fall and winter car prowling at shopping centers. I ended up moving back to my home town stay out of trouble and focuss on learning how to tattoo. I watched it all unfold….. I talked to every one, did lots of reading, became active on the web. Educated myself, and tried to keep up with what was happening. I never went to school much, and always had really bad grades when I did, I have never been big on politics until this all started. I made me want to know the truth, and the more that I read, the more I realized that Americans were being lied to, yeah sure sadam was a piece of shit, but Americans, at least the ones I knew personally, none of them cared about Iraqis, nor did the care about securing peace.. or whatever else bullshit reasons they gave for terrorizing the world. About a year later.I remember this kid that I used to know told me he had joined the army…. He said he was preparing to go off to iraq. I asked him WHY? He responded smugly. “to go kill towel heads” I lectured him for about the rest of the night. Then not to long afterwords I saw him drunk and he was leaving the next day. I told him he had a choice, and all about the fact that islam is not the reason the towers fell, and that iraq is by no means a threat to the usa, and that the real terrorists were amongst us…… later on I cant help but to think… did he ever ponder what I said when he was out there so far from home, bloody and trembling with fear? i am not a violent person, but I hope he did. It is him that I think of when I think of the armies, and it is the racist hostile Christians that I grew up with that I think of when I think of religion. I a million other examples but these are a couple good ones. This is where I am coming from, I don’t have the time to tell you everything about me, or how I think, but I do want you to realize that there is indeed a middle ground that we can reach. But we need to be tolerant of one another to reach it. We cant have any of this pathetic nationalism and the religions just like the cultural diversity that makes us stand out as different from one another…… CAN NOT be a division. BUT likewise, we can not allow our leaders to lead. Because when we are being led then that means we are not thinking. We need to think, we need to communicate. We need to make friendships, dispite what I believe or what you believe. I see religion as a hindrance to that unity, most religions attempt to convert through their followers…… they attempt to seclude and divide rather than make peace and unite. Do you really think we need more walls? Any one that likes walls and boundaries, I beg for them to go live in palestine a day. I want to live in a world where we have smashed all the walls and made friends with our neighbors, I want to have a big garden and grow food and eat and paint, and make music. I want to hear children playing and birds singing. Fuck war and anything that creates it.Islam needs to address its violent doctrines…… but it has issues with this because the poor people have been subjected to war and it has even made violence more natural….. it is human instinct to adapt and normalize their envioronment, which in turn shapes the culture and if not corrected it becomes codified and incorporated into its roots. The fruit can then seed new problems when this is allowed. This is what is happening here in Europe with the kids that are coming from such places, they are not like the kids from here, and there is no mistaking about that. Blame who ever you want, but this is another thing that and another topic that is causing a lot of misguided frustrations. Take denmark for instance, it opened its doors to some immigrants and is now in a crisis because of it. The danes are a very very different people than Americans, and drasticly different than folks from the middle east. And then when you throw in a few hundred thousand people who are sellshocked and traumatized from war now you have a problem. Because the danes see their society becoming violent like never before, their first approach has been top accommodate isalm and dedicate resources to aid its people, but islam from the Saudis or wherever is telling these people they need to hate the danes……. And so on, and the kids who are all fucked up from war are in gangs now and fighting, and women are getting raped and banks robbed, cars being bombed, I mean come on. I am totally for NO BORDERS, but whats up? How do we fix this and fix it NOW? A boycott of denmark, wouldn’t be appropriate enless all the muslims went back home to where they came from and gave us back our welfare state and other resources that WE pay for beings the fact that MOST immigrants are still not working, not that I am too concerned with who is working or not, but actually I am , because when one group lives off another and then wants to boycott them while they are still milking their society , im not even gonna mention the parallels between the way arabs and Scandinavians breed, I will just say that you don’t see many danes putting out that many kids. Hello, our world is over populated already, what is sustainable about that? Nothing, islam doesn’t preech sustainability, it preaches military tactics to conquere every culture in its path to world domination, and stil yet, your prophet is no less dead than jesus, or any other of the thousands of self proclaimed know it alls and gateways to god. Yeah I said that. Are you still peacefull? It doesn’t really matter, because even if you are not one of the folks who interprets your religion in a way that condones violence…. it does nothing to change the horrible fact that there are many many fanaticals that DO SEE the Koran and its offspring teachings as an incitement to commit murder in the name of a so called god. I am NOT simply against the Koran, and I am certainly not against you personally. But I am against ANY value or mindset, any cause or ideal, ANY religion or way of life that interferes with my free thought, my free expression, my free will, my free life. I am a human, I was not “ut here by a god” I am not to be mastered or corralled by a nation or state, I will not be subject to your laws. BUT BUT BUT I will NOT interfere with your life. I will be kind to you. But I will never be accepting of ANYTHING that can influence people to commit acts of war and oppression or hatred……. And if you say islam does not do this, I ask you to explain just what was it that stoned all those women? Don’t tell me it has not happened or that it was just an isolated “accident” ONE LIFE TAKEN, IS ONE LIFE TOO MANY. What about the gay folks in Islamic states? I have some very close friends who are gay I would rather put a bullet in your non existent god any day than to watch one of my loved ones hang or get stoned by a crowd of idiots chanting god is great. What about the honor killing that my wife came within an hour of accidentally witnessing at a train station? Them stupid sorry mother fuckers. HUH what about that poor girl who is fucking dead now because of the influence of your holly prophet god may HE rest in peace?What about the little girls who don’t want to be married to crusty old fuckers they have never met? And then forced to just roll over and take the dick every night because if they leave they will run the risk of being murdered. And likewise what about all the little girls who have clits mutilated by some sick fucking religious fool.Or what about the fact that women’s testimony in the courts of Islamic states is basically worthless. Just like their rights? And how about the caning or lashing stoning hanging of them when they get gang raped by thugs? Yeah sure Christianity can be debated in the same way, and I would be happy to talk lots of shit about western cultures problems too cuz I by no means cherish western culture or its dogma.. I don’t believe in western states and their religions any more than I do islam. Fact I see a lot of good things in islam. BUT the fact is that it can be interpreted in very negative ways too just like all religions, ideals, etc
You have to understand that the whole uproar thing that happened wasn’t because these cartoons were drawn, it was because these cartoons were meant to insult muslims world wide. As a person who claims to follow the teachings of Islam, I and millions of Muslims like me are not seeking to control the west nor sensor it.
My wife would like to ask you if you have ever even read or even looked at a Danish newspaper? Because they draw those cartoons of everyone, she listed a long list of them , kings, queens, ministers, other politicians religious leaders, pop stars….. I would like to add that I feel you are playing into the hands of the folks who would like to.(censor us) I have heard countless muslims talk of changing the law to make it to where we cant have the freedoms to insult religion…. BUT HOW ARE WE ALL GONNA EVER WAKE UP FROM THE DOGMATIC SLUMBER OF RELIGION, IF NO ONE IS PERMITTED TO INSULT IT. Because as you and I both know from isreals perspective, if you even question the jews you are insulting them, and are at risk of being blacklisted by their world banking scheme as an anti-Semite potential terrorist nazi sympathizer or radical islamist…..blah blah blah.If you go to any library in the world and any university also you would find hundreds of books and theses that attempt to disprove Islam or to belie the prophet Muhammad as a prophet, some even make the claim that Islam and its teachings are evil etc... There have been drawings and illustrations of the prophet, and there have never been any anger or violence before it either. This is different because it aimed to insult an important concept and a beloved person that is part of a world religion.
Ohh you cant tell me anyone has not been murdered for insulting islam.THEN why is it such a big deal when movies like fitna come out? Why do people get death threats when they question your peaceful religion?
Now in saying that, I would also have to argue that even though there is about 1.5 billion muslims in the world, it cannot be said that all of them follow islam. Many of them have very little knowledge of Islamic teachings and know what they know from traditions of their fathers. For these masses it’s easy to have a blind rage march in the streets, but it doesn’t mean that any of the millions of other speakers, community leaders and religious scholars actually called for any of these.
OHHHHH OK this explains it all, this makes it perfectly acceptable. This is a great excuse to condone all of the senseless misery that world religions and their political regimes have inflicted upon life on mother earth.Most of the violence happened in third world countries where there was already war and violence, so this was just an extension of it. Yes I do indeed understand this, and I am aware of this, BUT I don’t pay much attention to what is going on in Pakistan because of that, I am repulsed by that sort of a mob, in my opinion that is exactly why America has nukes. And that’s not a good thing. Because we don’t need to be setting those things off. But those olks need to get themselves under control, again, if that is what islam amounts to then, that’s just another stike against islam. And if your prophet is the one who inspired all those suicide bombings and idiots running down the street slashing their faces, and kids having to watch all this shit unfold, I wonder what is such a big deal with him having a bombhat? Does it not fit? Also if you remember in Pakistan they burned flags of Denmark etc… well these guys burn flags of anything that angers them, AND I BURN FLAGS TOO, BUT I AM NOT GONNA TURN RIGHT AROUND AND FLY ONE MYSELF. Its ok to burn flags if you are antinationalist, its pointless to burn flags if you yourself have one hanging out of your ass, so fuck packistan, those folks need to evolve, (but not their cooking cuz that’s fine the vegi stuff is good.
a few years ago they burned an effigy of an Australian cricket captain because he said something negative about the Pakistan cricket team.
That’s seriously funny, hate sports, I guess packistan isn’t that bad after all, I take back what I said about nuking them? Did I say that?
Sadly the media carries over to the west the violence and the hate of this ignorance, and leaves out the scores of initiatives for peace and understanding that sprung forth in the muslim world. From all countries from Egypt to Australia and everything in between.
I HATE THE MEDIA, THAT’S WHY I SAY BOYCOT THE TV. I HAVE BEEN ON A TV BOYCOT FOR YEARS. AND THE OTHER FORMS OF SO CALLED NEWS ARE JUST AS BAD.I get a lot of my news from places like independent media center. And from local collective organizations that the governments and corporations are NOT a part of.
Again I remind you that Muslims are not part of one huge organic consciousness, so that what a Moroccan does in Holland is not automatically sanctioned by me.
Then why follow the Koran at all? Why not follow your heart if there is no god that unifies you with this beautiful natural world that we live in? why not lose the man made in trade for what is real, what is natural. You sacrifice your entire existence for something that is entirely faith based and dividing from the rest of the universal web of life…….!?A number of years ago when something happened in Europe of I think the pope saying something against Islam. I say fuck the pope, that man is a perfect example of bloated rich old guy at the top of a pyramid scheme who does nothing good at all, he lets his priests stick their dicks into little boys, supports the spread of disease by his stance against contraception, nurtures the mass breeding of his fellow cattle so they will over populate the world while trying to become the most powerful most holiest cult on the planet, fuck the pope!
There were hundreds of articles and rebuttals of muslims in the east and the west arguing and presenting arguments against the pope’s argument. It was peaceful and not news worthy. Two weeks later there was a peaceful march in London to protest these remarks as not being constructive in a world context. MOST people walked peacefully and carried signs with peacefull messages. About 30 protestors though with some warped militant mentality hijacked the rally with very provocative messages supporting Bin Laden and promising a massacre in Britain etc, one person was stupid enough to wear a mock suicide bomber vest.
That’s almost funny, he was probably working for MI5 someone should have shot his ass, no seriously, they probably were working for the pigs, but that doesn’t make the religion any more right, nore does it make it appropriate to indoctrinate the masses with a script that is so flexible that it can mean peace to one and war to another, any guide to life such as a religion should be leading folks to peace or it should be burnt at the stake.
Suffice to say the whole march was tainted by the actions of a minority, and that is just what these people are, a minority, mostly fueled by ignorance and closed mindedness. Also in regards to the honor killing thing, It is an age old Arabic tradition to kill for honor, but Islam stopped it as it stopped many other inhumane and barbaric acts the arabs and other cultures used to do before embracing Islam. Honor killing is not an Islamic concept and it has not been condoned by any muslim authority ever.
I don’t believe you entirely, I think it has been adopted by islam, as you and I both know, religions adopt the customs of the people they conquer, just like Christians and their Christmas tree that actually came from the Nordic yule celebrations, islam now has honor killing, Christians have a yule tree.
I welcome your question and arguments in regards to this matter, as a muslim I feel I always have the responsibility to clarify Islam to people, especially now with all the wrong images of it being propagated by muslims and non muslims. Thanks again, and I look forward to your reply.
P.S. Don’t call me a bastard man ! you hardly know me !
OK I apologize for that, I don’t mean to offend you, I just get carried away sometimes, I think a lot of it comes from my being born and raised in America, they are a rather rude and obnoxious people if you have not noticed. I don’t miss America at all, I am actually trying to lose a lot of my American attitude, and the accent too.
P.P.S. Is it ok that I post this message and reply on my blog ? I’ll wait for your confirmation before I do so.
Yes yes, you can do that indeed, but if I get a bunch of death threats I hope your know its not gonna make islam look peaceful.
The end, my reply will be posted as soon as I've actually written it down